VBB 393 Cheryl Fidelman: Codependent Awakening!

VBB 393 Cheryl Fidelman

VIRGIN BEAUTY B!TCH Podcast

Intro [00:00:01 - 00:00:]

Virgin Beauty Bitch Podcast. Inspiring women to overcome social stereotypes and share unique life experiences without fear of being defiantly different. Your hosts, Christopher and Heather. Let's talk, shall we?

Christopher [00:00:10 - 00:00:51]

Codependence. It's a topic we've talked about in depth with past guests, but not yet in the context of our BITCH platform. Where we're focusing on women's self-empowerment and personal growth through the steps of betrayal, identity, trust, change, and healing, to which codependence creates pretty much a dead end. So let's talk about that with Codependent Awakening Coach Cheryl Feidelman. Welcome, Cheryl, to Virgin Beauty Bitch.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:00:52 - 00:00:54]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Christopher [00:00:54 - 00:01:28]

Thank you for doing this. Thank you for taking the time to visit with us. Now, Cheryl, identity and its potential for transformation is the I in our BITCH acronym. We believe that truly knowing yourself is core to individual growth, while codependence, to me, is like gift-wrapping your essence and surrendering it to someone else to hopefully cherish and nurture for you. 2 questions. Is that a fair assessment, number one? And how do you see this complex, often misunderstood construct we assume as our identity?

Cheryl Fidelman [00:01:29 - 00:02:22]

Great question, so well put. So to highlight a chunk of the first question, yes, it is completely handing over our reality, our worth, our value, our safety, our sense of self, our identity to another person. It's not being inside of our own reality. It's focused on somebody else's reality. To find their mood and their wants and desires, so then we can find our own reality second. So if I figure out your mood, then I know where I stand, right? Or if you're a big talker, then I'll find the pause for me to then jump in. So I'm taking up the amount of space that I think that you have to provide me. And it is an identity.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:02:22 - 00:03:00]

It's a younger identity. So codependency is inherently regressive. It's— so I call it your traumatic identity. Some schools of thought call it your inner child. It's a similar thing. But it's the identity that developed in reaction to your parents' or guardians' reality. So for a lot of us, when we were kids, we were focused on our parents for our safety, our worth, and our value, for them to see us and understand us and maybe understand the impact they're making on us. And we either got some of that or we didn't get a lot of it.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:03:00 - 00:03:52]

But now, as adults, your inherent biological unconscious habit or behaviour of looking outside of yourself for safety, which you had to do when you were a kid, now becomes your adulthood codependency. So now, in our codependent moments, we're still that little kid looking outside of ourselves for safety, honour, trust, bonding, all of that. And codependency has a very inferior-superior thing, because when you were a kid, other people were bigger and more powerful than you. But now, when you're an adult, in your codependent moments, you're still in a diminished state, and the other person has more power. And so these are all the pieces of why codependency is regressive. And we're just in a younger form of identity of ourselves in those moments.

Christopher [00:03:54 - 00:04:16]

It sounds like a setup. I mean, it's not. It's the interaction between parent and child. It has to be that way. How is it that we're not conditioned, taught, programmed out of this codependence? To be independent, strong, independent human beings? Why do so many of us end up in codependence?

Cheryl Fidelman [00:04:17 - 00:05:06]

Because, because of an event or a series of events, your nervous system made a decision or series of decisions. Be smaller, quiet down, protect yourself, be really smart. You know, for some of us, it's like, you're really, really smart, you do your chores really well, and you get everything done, and you cross your T's and you dot your I's. And those are the ways that had you gain a sense of belonging when you were a kid. And so, you know, to be human is to be traumatized. It's not just people who have had huge, obvious traumatic events that are codependent or who have childhood trauma. Yes, those people. And there's some of us that, like, just gently over time, your parents were busy and they weren't affectionate, and they weren't paying attention to you, and your mom wasn't nurturing.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:05:07 - 00:06:18]

She wasn't mean, but, you know, I have a lot of clients who are like, I didn't really have some huge event, but like my dad wasn't around, and nobody was talking to me. And that over time creates an identity of holding things in, of not expecting to be seen because you don't have the, you don't have the experience of being seen. And so our identity is constantly shape-shifting and forming. And the environment or container that it shape-shifted and formed in, mainly between 0 and 8, but trauma can happen way beyond that and still affect your identity. Our identity stays in the form that it was in until and if we start to notice those pieces as they're not you. Your codependency is not you. Your traumatic identity is not you. So when you start to learn the pieces of how and why we formed, and dissolve those pieces away so that we can meet our true essence and have a deep relationship with our true self.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:06:19 - 00:06:55]

For some of us, it takes some work. For some of us, like myself, it takes a lot of work. I started my codependency healing when I was 14, and I'm 49 right now. So I've been looking at this from a million different angles for 35 years. I have some people who take my 6-month program, and they're just like, you know, they have healed so much, and they're like brand new. And for some people, they've taken 30 programs before they've taken my program, you know. So it's a process, I think, to really truly surrender to our true selves. And that process is a process of vulnerability.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:06:55 - 00:07:20]

It's a process of learning how to trust yourself and trust other people. And that it's not up to people to keep you safe. It's not up to somebody else. It's not up to your partner. It's not up to your husband or your spouse or your boss. Your safety is in your nervous system. And a big part of my work is helping reprogram trust and safety in your nervous system. So you're not looking outside of you for it.

Heather [00:07:21 - 00:08:27]

Yeah, I think that, you know, at the beginning of your conversation, what you had to share around looking externally to feel trust, right? To feel safe, to feel seen. And I think a lot of the work that folks are doing is: how do I look within to establish self-trust, feeling safe within your own body, like you're saying, helping your nervous system feel safe- the work you do for yourself. And I feel like sometimes these different conversations get almost like a gray area or like enmeshed because there's this human need to want to trust other people. There's a human desire to feel safe and expect safety from the other people that you surround yourself with. So, in your work, you know, how do you kind of help people bridge that so it isn't going into, you know, codependency and instead staying in, you know, what I feel is a very natural part of being human and wanting those things from others?

Cheryl Fidelman [00:08:27 - 00:08:58]

It's a great question. It's completely natural for us to want to bond. It's natural for us to want to feel bonded. For some of us, I think phases of isolation are very healthy. But as a lifestyle, we're not at our best in isolation. And we do impact each other. So I'm impacting you right now, you're impacting me, we're impacting the listeners. So I don't want to overlook impact; we impact each other.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:08:59 - 00:10:01]

But when we're in our traumatic identity, our younger selves, it doesn't know the difference between a real threat and a perceived threat. So, when I'm in my younger self, and I'm in my codependent state, I'm feeling a lot more unsafe. Codependent state- I mean, did I say independent state? When I'm in my codependent state, I'm experiencing a lot more unsafety than there actually is. My partner can say something to me that I'm perceiving as a threat; I'm perceiving it as not safe because it triggered me into my traumatic identity. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm really not safe. So it's our inner work to know who— which part of me is online right now and interpreting the situation. And so my work is very influenced by IFS, Internal Family Systems, and they deal with lots of different parts of the psyche. And I've distilled mine to 2 parts, which are the traumatic identity versus your true nature.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:10:02 - 00:10:56]

So I train people to know the feeling you're having right now. I don't want the feeling to go away. I'm not about, " Oh, you feel uncomfortable? Well, let's try to make you feel comfortable. No. I help people surrender to their body so they can feel the discomfort, not try to resist it or get out of it or shrug it away. We're expanding your ability and your threshold for feeling and sensation. And at the same time, connecting to intuition, knowing who's feeling this feeling right now. Is your traumatic identity interpreting the situation, and that's why you feel controlled or manipulated or unsafe or scared? Or is your true nature having an accurate emotional response to the current stimulus? And when we start to distinguish those things, we live in a lot more acceptance of unsafety because we know that our younger self is the one interpreting it right now.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:10:57 - 00:11:56]

And then you start to know when you're actually unsafe, when your true self and your true nature is like, oh, this person's like not just like literally not a safe person, and I shouldn't be here. I mean, I can tell you I had so many boyfriends that I was legitimately unsafe with, but I stayed because I didn't trust that feeling. And I didn't totally feel it because I was busy trying to calm them down and try to talk them into being some other way, and trying to get them to understand who they were, what they were doing and how they were being. And so my relationship to feeling unsafe was to leave yourself and help try to fix and change them. That was my relationship to safety. And so it's all about really developing your relationship to safety. And when you are starting to know that you're in more of a perceived threat than a real threat, your bonds with other people and yourself. First of all, your bond with yourself will change, and your bond with other people will change.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:11:57 - 00:12:30]

And what I want to add to that, because I know I can answer these questions for like 20 minutes at a time and we have limited time, but what I want to add to that is there's also a difference between being— feeling unsafe and just feeling uncomfortable. Like, I can say something to you and your little— your traumatic identity could go, I don't feel safe. Cheryl's not safe. Your true nature could go, I'm safe. I just don't feel comfortable. And that's okay. There's a difference there. And you may say, I'm not going to be friends with Cheryl because I just feel uncomfortable with her and I don't like her.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:12:30 - 00:12:44]

And that's fine. That's a difference between I'm unsafe, she's unsafe, this thing is unsafe. And so there, you can have different interpretations. Your traumatic identity, your true nature, may have different interpretations. Does that make sense?

Christopher [00:12:45 - 00:13:09]

Absolutely. It just gets complicated, as you say, with whatever our past has been and whatever conditions are making us codependent on other people. It's different probably for each and every individual, but it's like a formula that you can't really give to everyone because it's different for everyone.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:13:09 - 00:14:03]

So, but the codependent piece that's the same for everyone is you have a feeling, and you leave yourself to handle that feeling. That is codependence. Why and how you leave yourself- we are all, you know; I see us, all of our codependent patterning, as snowflakes. And that's what I do: I get really clear on your unique, everybody's unique codependent patterning. But I have a feeling, and I'm going to leave and handle your reality to deal with my feeling, that is codependency across the board. That's the fundamental way that I define it: we leave ourselves to handle somebody else's reality before handling our own. It's similar to alcohol, where we have a feeling, and we grab a beer or a cigarette or a drug to handle that feeling. In codependency, I have a feeling, and I reach outside of myself to handle it, to deal with my feeling.

Christopher [00:14:04 - 00:14:12]

That's interesting that you brought that example because I was going to ask you: In the clients that you deal with, do you deal with women and men?

Cheryl Fidelman [00:14:12 - 00:14:12]

I do.

Christopher [00:14:13 - 00:14:28]

Is there a difference in the scale, the percentage of women who are more into codependency? Are women more into codependency and men more into reaching for the physical or whatever substance? Or is it equal? How does that work?

Cheryl Fidelman [00:14:29 - 00:14:34]

Do you mean, are there more men addicted to substances and more women addicted to people? Is that what you're—

Christopher [00:14:34 - 00:14:36]

Pretty much. I would—

Cheryl Fidelman [00:14:36 - 00:14:38]

I don't know. I don't know the statistics on that.

Christopher [00:14:38 - 00:14:40]

You haven't seen that in your work- the patterns?

Cheryl Fidelman [00:14:40 - 00:14:44]

Well, I don't work with people addicted to substances.

Christopher [00:14:44 - 00:14:44]

Okay.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:14:44 - 00:15:24]

So that's not my demographic. But it's an interesting question. But I will say, when it comes to masculine-feminine, there are different ways— we have a lot in common. And there are some different ways that codependency shows up. Because the masculine- and this could be the masculine in a man or a woman- wants to fix, change, support, and serve. It's an automatic fix, change, support, and serve. That's a masculine trait, and that could be for a man or a woman when we're in our masculine. A woman wants to take care of and nurture, take care of and nurture.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:15:24 - 00:16:04]

So we can start to confuse, am I taking care of and nurturing from my feminine heart, from my maternal nature? Is this natural for— is this a really giving-from-my-heart thing to do? Or is this a codependency piece where I want to nurture beyond my tank, or I want to nurture because I feel obligated or responsible to handle their reality? The same for the masculine. Do I want to fix, change, and serve because I really want to support the situation? Or am I like overgiving because I'm coming from my traumatic identity, because I think that's what's going to make you happy so that everybody's happy, right? So those are some unique pieces there.

Heather [00:16:04 - 00:16:27]

I'm glad you layered in kind of this feminine and masculine, 'cause I do think that that's something that becomes convoluted very easily. Is that, you know, am I trying to be caring and supportive and present for someone else, or am I hiding from how I'm actually feeling and wanting to dive into, you know, what this other person's feeling?

Cheryl Fidelman [00:16:27 - 00:16:27]

Right.

Heather [00:16:27 - 00:17:07]

And, you know, similarly to what you've already said with, like, childhood trauma, or not necessarily big T trauma, but being neglected, ignored, overlooked, not prioritized as a child, you know, you don't feel like your feelings on something actually matter. So you go to somebody else's feelings in order to, I don't know, have a bond, like you were saying, have a connection. So I'm just like, when people are going through that, especially women, although, you know, not just women, you know, what, what could you recommend for them to notice it's gone beyond, you know, them wanting to be caring and present for someone else?

Cheryl Fidelman [00:17:08 - 00:17:50]

So well put. And it's a really good question. So what I— a large part of my work is a somatic healing practice that I developed called the TSE practice: thought, sensation, emotion. So I train people to be able to stay in their body while they're connecting with another person. So you're bearing witness to yourself while simultaneously bearing witness to another, which is like, I'm having an independent emotional experience. I'm witnessing it; I'm including it. And I'm witnessing your experience, as opposed to what you're saying is, I have to shut this out in order to focus on you. That is codependent patterning.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:17:50 - 00:18:31]

That is a codependent habit. So I train people to stay in their body and include their own experience wherever they are. And that's not to say I train people to not be able to fully give of their heart, that you're only giving of some because you're keeping some here. No, but you can feel— I train you to feel when you're leaving yourself. I train you to feel when you shut this light off, and you only have the light on the other person. Because navigation of one's inner world is the number one most important thing in my work. So I train you to navigate your world. You know when you're not there.

Christopher [00:18:32 - 00:19:13]

I think that is the perfect explanation of identity. I think a lot of us come to know identity as something we put out into the world, and the world judges it, and we adjust accordingly. We don't focus on the essence of who we are, what we want, and knowing ourselves. How do we make that— how do we change that tilt, that mirror back to us, right? And still be part of the world.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:19:14 - 00:19:16]

And still be part of the world. What do you mean by that?

Christopher [00:19:17 - 00:19:49]

Well, I think a lot of people believe that if they focus on themselves, they're being selfish. They're being, um, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're not as caring and as loving as they should be, or people expect them to be. We have a lot of focus on the selfishness of people who give themselves the time to be all that they are, I find.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:19:50 - 00:19:50]

Yeah.

Christopher [00:19:51 - 00:20:06]

Right? So you're walking a tightrope as far as how you see the world might perceive you when it's so important to actually give that time to yourself, to know yourself, to love yourself, to care for yourself. And not feel selfish about it.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:20:07 - 00:21:16]

So from the point of view of my work, perception is a wild thing because when we were kids, we developed an identity that matched what our parents could perceive. So, for example, when I was a kid, my mom was in and out of mental hospitals and was just a really wild, sick person. And if I had a point of view, my mom couldn't perceive it. She— it was like it wasn't there. It was like only her reality. Okay. And so my identity developed around what this person can perceive. And so I will read them and learn what they can perceive, and then I will exist in the lane and frequency that they can perceive. So in my work, I take our gaze out of somebody else's eyes, and that's when you truly can surrender to your own identity.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:21:16 - 00:21:40]

And in there is a lot of healing of fear. Oh, well, what if I say something that they can't perceive or that they don't like or that doesn't work for them? That's still the codependent piece. We're still worried about how it's going to land for them. So, in my work, I just keep taking our energy tentacles out of other people's minds. Take it out. Get out of their minds. Get out of their bodies. Just get out.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:21:40 - 00:21:56]

Get out. Get out. That's where your personal freedom is. And that's not to say, like, go and go buck wild and be completely inappropriate everywhere. But you'll have a lot more personal freedom when you're out of other people's minds.

Christopher [00:21:56 - 00:22:37]

I think for Heather and me, the idea of bitch is that the world believes that she is the buck wild, crazy, doesn't care about anything but herself woman. But she's also the woman who does care a lot about herself, and her perspective is paramount. She's also called a bitch, even though she's just taking care of herself and expressing herself from what is in her heart. So we've got 2, basically, you can't win, right, for women in a lot of cases where this word is concerned. Have you encountered that in your experiences?

Cheryl Fidelman [00:22:38 - 00:23:30]

I think that personal freedom comes with courage. And part of that courage is to live without shame and to be— say what I really believe, say what's true, allow feelings and sensations to move through me because that is the feminine regardless of what gender you identify as. Our femininity lies in our sensuality, in our emotions, in our sensations. sensations. It does not lie in the strategic mind. That's not to say women can't be strategic. I'm just saying that feminine energy lies below the neck. And to allow that energy to move through us and actually feel it and be aligned with our intuition and our voice, that's, that's our femininity.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:23:31 - 00:24:13]

And when we really start to dissolve shame, it can be powerful to just be and feel, and that power hits up against other people. And part of the courage is to have availability for how that hits up against other people. They like it, they don't like it, they love it, they're curious, they're attracted to you, they're not attracted. Because here's the thing: when we heal our codependency, we become more available to impact people. Our codependency. Codependency says, don't impact anybody. Don't impact anybody. Just stay in your little lane, or at least the lane that people have available for you, which is a lot of work.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:24:14 - 00:24:45]

You know, codependency is a lot of work. It's a lot of work to shed it. It's a lot less work when we're free of it. We're just not working to compartmentalize our energy and the things that we have to say. And so I think it's important work to be willing to impact people, to just impact people. And because that's what we do with our energy. We— I say something, you say something, we impact each other.

Heather [00:24:46 - 00:24:56]

If you could, you know, just humour me for a moment, but what would you think, you know, the bitch's definition or understanding of codependency would be?

Cheryl Fidelman [00:24:56 - 00:25:02]

The bitch's understanding. And what does that mean? Like the person who has personal freedom or?

Heather [00:25:03 - 00:25:07]

Whatever it could mean to you. We think that the bitch is one who has a lot of personal freedom.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:25:07 - 00:26:24]

Well, I think that, and this is what I found for myself when I, all of these phases of being younger versions of myself, and I'm getting more and more personally free, that I have more and more compassion for younger versions of me who are just like in the prison of codependency. And I have a lot more compassion for other people who are in the prison of codependency. And it is an identity prison. And so, you know, more than likely, most bitches have been through the shedding of these prisons and can look at people who are still held back by shame or obligation or projecting their reality. And have compassion for them, nurture them, give them some permission, and also accept where they're at in their journey. And that's a big piece. You know, I— a lot— so there are 52 principles of my work, and one of them is what I call codependent regret. Because we go through this awakening, and then we start to regret the ways in which we behaved because we were so, like, unconscious and the relationships we put ourselves through.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:26:24 - 00:26:41]

And, and so part of healing codependent regret is having acceptance and understanding and compassion for our younger selves. So that's ideally what I would like the codependent— not the codependent bitch, the bitch to provide.

Heather [00:26:41 - 00:26:46]

I love that. Honestly, every, every word you just said- that was very well said. Thank you.

Christopher [00:26:46 - 00:26:54]

We've been developing— Heather and I, we've been doing this now for 10 years, speaking with women pretty much every week over that time.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:26:54 - 00:26:55]

Wow, that's awesome, you guys.

Christopher [00:26:56 - 00:27:25]

And getting this education of how women deal with this, the word itself, and how it's changed in women who have crossed, like, the Rubicon, right, of what people expect of them and how they should behave and so on and so forth. And how they have taken this word, and it's become something of great value to who they are now.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:27:26 - 00:27:26]

Mm-hmm.

Christopher [00:27:27 - 00:27:47]

As opposed to something that others can use to disparage them, break them down, shame them, whatever it might be. And that's what this process that Heather and I are going through is all about: showing the other side of what this word can mean to a woman if she owns the qualities that go with it.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:27:49 - 00:28:10]

Yeah. And I think, you know, this idea of people shaming us, that, that is only going to show you your relationship to shame. However that impacts you, whatever that does for you, some shaming you, that, yeah, that's an opportunity to show you your relationship to shame, where it is in your body, what it's still doing to you.

Christopher [00:28:11 - 00:28:27]

I like that. I like it. It's a mirror. They've held up a mirror. What are you going to do with it? Right? So tell us about your work. I know you deal with a lot of different modalities, and you've mentioned some of them, the somatic piece that you've done. Is there anything else you wanted to mention about how you work?

Cheryl Fidelman [00:28:29 - 00:29:13]

Yeah, so I work with groups, couples, and individuals. I also have workshops that I teach and retreats that I teach, but they're all the Conscious Codependence process. So that's the process that I developed that I bring people through to heal codependency and bring them back into a deep, home, trusting, non-negotiable home within themselves. The foundational methodology of my work is what I call the 3 Codes to Clear Codependency. And the book is almost done too. So the 3 Codes to Clear Codependency book is coming out. I also have like hundreds of videos on YouTube if anybody wants to see more, see me more talking about my work. So the 3 codes are the want to be wanted, the need to be needed, and the need to prove oneself.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:29:14 - 00:30:02]

And each of them has their own developmental roots and common behavioural patterns. So we're working with the framework, the 3 codes. We're working with the somatic healing, somatic experiencing process where I help people stay in their body in all of their relationships. And people can go to my website, CherylFeitelman.com, and you can get a free PDF that breaks out, breaks down the 3 codes. And you can also schedule a free codependency pattern consultation where we'll start to unravel your unique codependency patterning. And then if it resonates with you and you want to come to work with me, then we can work that out in the consultation as well. And if you hear about me from this podcast, then I have a program discount for your listeners as well.

Christopher [00:30:03 - 00:30:07]

Bravo. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you for doing that.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:30:07 - 00:30:51]

So, I just want to say that my soapbox, if you will, that I stand on is that I am out to normalize codependency. That is, I wake up every day with that purpose, mission, and passion for 20 years. This is like the rock that I'm pushing up the hill. I want to normalize it because I think it's wildly common. It's so common, especially for my main demographic, which is high achievers, because everything looks fine on the outside. But behind the scenes, there's a personal disconnect with themselves in their intimate relationship or with their body. Or they're achieving because that's what their traumatic identity tells them to do. So that's— I'm just, I'm out to normalize it, and I'm gonna keep going with that torch.

Christopher [00:30:51 - 00:30:53]

Well, we support you 100%.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:30:53 - 00:30:55]

Thanks for collaborating, you guys.

Christopher [00:30:55 - 00:31:05]

This is very important work, and we appreciate you sharing so much wealth of knowledge and experience with us. We really appreciate that.

Cheryl Fidelman [00:31:05 - 00:31:10]

Thank you. I appreciate you both too. You're doing wonderful work, pumping great stuff out there. Thank you so much.

Heather [00:31:11 - 00:31:33]

Oh, it's been a pleasure to get to know you and your insights on something that we hear so often around codependency, but you have broken down and peeled back a lot of layers for me, and I'm sure for our listeners. So thank you, Cheryl, for the work that you've done on this and continue to do. I, uh, I'm gonna look out for you and check out your retreat. So thank you for that.

Christopher [00:31:33 - 00:32:11]

And you have been listening to The Virgin, The Beauty, and the B-I-T-C-H in her year 2026. You got it. Find us, like us, share us, and we invite you back for more of these really, really in-depth, beautiful, fantastic, powerful conversations.

To become a partner in the VBB community, we invite you to find us at virginbeauty.com. Like us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and share us with people who are defiantly different like you. Until next time, thanks for listening.